Stanford GSB grads discuss MBA admissions, entrepreneurship and affordable car loans [Show summary]
Nicholas Hinrichsen and Chris Coleman, startup co-founders who earned their MBAs at Stanford GSB, return to Admissions Straight Talk to share what they’ve accomplished as entrepreneurs since earning their MBAs.
Chris Coleman and Nicholas Hinrichsen share how their experiences at GSB helped them grow their startups [Show notes]
So, you want to be an entrepreneur in something using tech. Or maybe you’re interested in tech product management. Should you get an MBA? Is it a waste of time and money that you could better spend learning on your own, founding your own business? Two Stanford GSB grads are here to share their perspective, reflecting seven years of successful entrepreneurial experience since earning their MBAs.
Nicholas Hinrichsen and Chris Coleman, who were previously guests on Admission Straight Talk in Episode 88, both graduated from Stanford GSB in 2013. While at GSB, they founded Carlypso, which was acquired by Carvana in 2017. Since then, they’ve founded a new venture, WithClutch.
When we last spoke, you both had recently graduated from Stanford GSB, and you were running Carlypso, which you had founded as MBA students. What’s happened since then? Can you bring us up to date? [2:09]
Chris: A lot has happened since then. When we talked, I think we were going through Y Combinator. We actually ended up pivoting the business into a new model since that time. Carlypso was this sort of peer-to-peer car sales platform. We ended up pivoting to being a direct wholesale channel where we sold cars, leasing to companies that can’t sell directly to the consumer but have to sell through these wholesale auctions. We became a virtual dealer of sorts. We built software that said, “Okay, what are the cars that we think are good for consumers? How do we figure out how to use performance marketing to our advantage so that we can market the right car to the right consumer?”
We had a pretty good handle on that. It was a good business. It wasn’t a great business because it required very, very heavy operations, actually moving around 4,000-pound pieces of metal all the time, rather than bits and bytes. The software that we built ended up being more valuable than our end-value prop to consumers. And so we sold the software to Carvana, and ended up joining as executives there. Nick ran the sell-to-Carvana business of buying cars from consumers, and I ran product for the initial part of the consumer experience, from the homepage, search page, and product pages.
We spent three years there. It was a great three years of seeing the company go from early public company to the company everyone else is aiming to beat. That was a really fun ride, and we got to know some of the executives there very well who were super helpful and had very different skill sets than us. Now we’ve gone off to start a new thing again. Me and Nick have just started WithClutch, which is sort of a platform for saving consumers on their automotive expenses.
Nick: Our first employee at Carlypso ended up applying to business school when we sold. So, business school plays lots of roles in our lives. The person at Carvana who we touched base with to “compare notes” (when what we really wanted was to sell the company) happened to be one of our classmates from GSB. I had worked on a student-run event with her, and Chris had been on a student trip with her. Thankfully, GSB reappeared in our lives multiple times. I don’t think we would have made it to where we are without our experience at the GSB, frankly.
Silicon Valley tends to disparage the MBA. When we spoke in 2013, you were very happy you did your MBA. Do you still think the time you spent at GSB was time well spent? [5:34]
Nick: There are so many dimensions to it. If you go into it thinking it’s an academic experience, you’ll walk out of it with so much more than what you’ve learned. Both Chris and I, we have a very tight overlapping circle of friends. Most of our friends are GSB students. We’re both in the Bay Area. Chris is in Half Moon Bay. I’m in San Francisco. Most of our friends in the Bay Area are GSB students. The references for the investors who invested in our new company were classmates and GSB students. And in fact, the partner who led the round said, “I’m so surprised that we haven’t met before because we have so many friends in common.” All of them, believe it or not, were GSB students. We can’t get rid of it.
Chris: The mindset of Silicon Valley scorning MBAs is probably less so now than it was. I think there was a time period where some founders had companies taken over by experienced managers, and I think that’s less true today than it was previously. I feel like there’s not as much of a stigma about the “evil businessperson.” And then I think the benefits of the MBA have been more tangential than purely direct, too. The main benefit of Stanford and GSB was a way to get a lot of smart, ambitious people together. Then suddenly, you form a social group of smart, ambitious people. A lot of things you learn are totally indirect.
For me, I was the one interested in cars, and I think that’s how Nick learned the dimension of that space here. The same can be said of our classmates who were super into enterprise software investing. That’s how we got to learn about that side of the business and get some shared enthusiasm there. I’m not sure I remember anything from classes I took, but I don’t think that was the important part anyway. I think “network” to me is a little bit of a dirty word because “network” implies you go there with the intention of having a professional cohort. Your network is people that you’re friends with. That’s sort of how it was formed.
Nick: A good example is: We left Carvana. Chris, two friends of ours, and I went to a national park. One of our friends, a GSB classmate, runs an angel investment fund. And we asked them for advice. How should we go about fundraising? They said, “Okay, so here’s what you should do. Here’s the people we need to introduce you to. Here’s three GSB people who happen to be in those funds, so we have a really easy intro.” These are all friends now. I could have asked him for advice on how to fundraise even if he had been a stranger, but he’s one of our closest friends, and he found so much joy helping friends. And then he asked us for help, or hopefully will one day, and we’ll gratefully return the favor. It’s more like helping your friends than anything else.
Chris: I always picture a sleazy mixer when someone says “networking.” I’m like, “I don’t want to do that.”
Nick: The other thing is that it’s easy to forget what you learned. I could tell you now that undergrad was worthless because I forgot all the things that I know now that I didn’t know before. But I didn’t realize that I acquired those skills or learnings there. I think there are a few frameworks Chris and I use all the time when thinking through problems and when starting the company. I can with full certainty say that we learned it from a few classes. We just remember the professors more than the classes, to be honest.
Is there anything that stands out in your minds as being particularly valuable about your MBA experience, either an in-class experience or an extracurricular experience? [10:17]
Nick: I think it’s the relationships to our lecturers. Back then, I was almost starstruck by who taught us, and these people would meet for coffee, including the person who wrote our first check, that “$50,000 cup of coffee.” A number of these professors and lecturers invested in our first round, and we couldn’t believe they did that. And now we’re raising again, and the relationship is more like, I’ll send them a quick text message. “Hey, guys, do you want to come in?” It feels almost like the age gap that was wider has become closer, and I almost feel a little bit like a peer of our investors, more than being starstruck. And so, that’s obviously incredible.
Chris: We sought out a lot of advice from a lot of different people throughout that time. And I think what stuck with me most is that it’s not helpful when people give you wishy-washy frameworks and non-concrete things. There’s a lot of temptation. We went to our business school professors asking them whether we should or shouldn’t do this. They basically said, “Well, here’s what you should think about, and here’s what you shouldn’t.” I always really appreciated it when we went to folks, and this was true of a select few, who said, “Don’t do that. Here’s the decision, and here’s how I’m thinking about it. Break my line of reasoning.” I always found those discussions much more helpful.
I always try and frame myself when people ask for advice, or when I think through a problem, with, okay, I have to have a view. Otherwise, it’s not worthwhile getting any advice. And so, if I have to have a view, what supports this, and why would I feel strongly or not strongly against it? And what would I have to assume to break it? We found a select few thought partners who were very adamant and had strong worldviews, even if they were very different. Often we went against that advice, and said, “That was super, super valuable. But here’s information I have that you don’t.” That’s one way of thinking that I took from business school that I think was super helpful.
Did you ever get pushback? A lot of times people don’t want to give direct advice because they’re afraid that the person hearing it won’t take it, or they’ll resent it. [12:46]
Nick: I actually think it’s the responsibility that people don’t want. I think if Chris asked me for advice, or my friends asked me for advice, and I extended my opinion or shared my opinion, then there’s a little bit of responsibility with that opinion. Because if the person takes the opinion, follows my advice, and I was wrong… I think that’s why people are sometimes a little wishy-washy.
As Chris said, we had funny conversations where there was not a wishy-washy answer, that centered, “Do not do that. I think it’s a bad idea.” And then we digested it, but then we collected more information and decided we were still going to do it. And then that same person said, “I respect you for not agreeing with me, and that we can agree to disagree. Tell me the data you had, and I will probably understand why you made the other decision.”
You’ve both worked in product management, an area of increasing interest for today’s MBAs. What skills and education should MBAs interested in product management pursue? What qualities should they be trying to develop? [13:58]
Chris: Actually, I hate the title of “Product Manager” so much. Let me start there because it’s very ambiguous, and it means different things to different companies for different purposes. I think there’s an attractiveness to it because people envision themselves like, “Hey, I’m really crafting the product here, and I get to write my Medium article, and I create value for these consumers.” It can vary so much across both the stage and type of company as well. If you get a product manager role, it can be as much as a timekeeper and a process keeper, so more project management than anything else. That’s one extreme. And the other extreme is like a company founder who is specifically setting overall direction. Or you have very technical PMs who are really just ex-engineers who understand what needs to be done and for what purpose within this deep infrastructure.
I think the role is too ambiguous. People say, “I aspire to product management.” This is interesting. I think people should draw on what attributes they want to take part in. But I think there are other ways to get directly or indirectly involved in those roles. I always think it’s strange when people tell me they really want to do product management. It really matters a huge amount for whom, at what stage? What do you like about it? And what do you really want to do? I think some people end up very disenchanted because they picture this company founder-type role, and they end up in this project management-type function. And that can be super frustrating.
Nick: When you asked the question, I had a laugh because I knew that Chris was going to have a strong reaction. A lot of times a product manager is sold as the CEO of a little business. That was not our experience. That’s why we had a strong reaction. You work with engineering. You may have junior product managers. You may have analytics. You may have design, but none of these functions report to you. If somebody doesn’t do a good job, it’s very difficult to push back because you have no means of managing these people. And then all of a sudden, instead of having a company that’s run by a group of enthusiastic people, you’re more of a consultant who asks people for advice and manages the individual stakeholders but has no authority to enforce anything. You could push back and say, “Well, isn’t it a strength of a good leader to put things together?” I would argue, to some extent, yes. But if you don’t hire or fire them, and you can’t even comment on their performance review, then your role as a project manager is really not very strong.
Chris: Right. Like I said, it varies such a huge amount between companies. It’s almost like saying, “I like sports.” Okay, well, there are many sports.
Nick: A number of our classmates went to the tech giants like Amazon, Facebook, Google. We don’t have the experience, but I could imagine that within Facebook, a product management role is much clearer and articulated. They’re much more similar from one role to each other to the next one than across multiple companies. So, if you’re asking somebody within Facebook to explain a product management role to me, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were more similar from one to the next than across different companies. If you talk to MBAs being a product manager at Facebook, there’s a lot of them there, and they’re having a good time.
You’ve also gotten involved in investing in startups. How are you enjoying that work? [19:26]
Nick: Yeah. We got a lot of help when we got started, including this check. We got lucky and stumbled into a position where financially we can be at a slightly lower order of magnitude but helpful to other founders too. That’s what Chris and I enjoy a lot. We have a lot of friends who are starting companies, and they need a little push in the beginning because it’s all about momentum when you raise money. That’s, I think, the role we’re playing when we invest. The investments we made are primarily in companies of friends of ours, if that makes sense, a number of them GSB students.
Now let’s turn to WithClutch, your new startup. What is it? [20:25]
Nick: It’s a digital platform to refinance auto loans. The vision on a larger scale is to build something like Credit Karma for your auto expenses. The insight for the business came three to four years ago when we were selling used cars. We realized a big tension between what customers wanted and asked us for and what would have been good for the business was: Customers haggle for the price of a car, but then at some point, all of a sudden they fully trust the car dealer with their financial products. 80% of the people who get a car loan get the loan from the dealership, yet the dealership has very different incentives. If I, as a dealer, can present you a loan that pays you a low interest rate, or present you a different loan that pays me a high referral fee, guess what dealers do? There’s insight number one.
Insight number two is once you work with customers in the used car segment, they have challenged credit, so lower credit scores. You see, when they make payments, that they move a lot. They improve their credit a lot and would qualify for better rates, but nobody helps them. Nobody rewards you for making your payments. The idea is, based on these two insights, that nobody really refinances auto loans, and we have a few insights and learned a lot that allows us to build a digital platform to do so.
Chris: When we came up with this new business, we actually had been thinking about this idea since the Carlypso days. As we found Carlypso hard to scale, one of the things we always found odd is that consumers don’t trust dealers except for when it comes to financial products. Consumers are super skeptical about the used car. They have all these questions. The idea of a used car salesman is a joke, right? It’s among the types you don’t trust. And yet, as soon as you end up in the room figuring out how to get financing, you realize that what you did research on is only half the product. All these things are highly marked up. There’s a disincentive tension that exists between the dealer and the consumer, and we felt it because often, we were so beat up on car prices that the only way to make money was to markup these products. That’s sort of one dimension.
The other dimension is when you look at this portfolio effect where, as a business, you do rational things, and as a consumer, they kind of make you angry. The same is true of health insurance or life insurance, for example. If you’re super healthy, and you’re exercising, and you’re doing everything to maintain a healthy lifestyle, and you’re in a pool with someone who you know is outside smoking and sitting on the couch and doing unhealthy behaviors, in some way, you feel like you’re subsidizing that expense. The same is true of these loan portfolios. You make your payments and you’re getting 25% interest. As a lender, it makes sense that you have to keep those people together because it’s sort of day-zero they look the same. But then as a consumer, the behavior is differentiated amongst them. You can have this sort of positive selection. We think there is a real opportunity to serve these consumers in a way that helps coach you to get even better and then helps you realize money that you could save. It seemed like an interesting opportunity that was directly in our wheelhouse in a way that was engaging and scalable, and in a way that refurbishing metal never was.
Nick: We had the conversation with this GSB friend I told you about who helped us with fundraising. We walked him through what the business would be like multiple times. He invests in software as a service enterprise, software as a service businesses, and he thinks about. He’s like, “Okay, so it’s a little bit like software, just really operational.” And we’re like, what do you mean by operations? He said, “Well, there’s a process afterwards. You need to fund a loan and stuff like that.” We’re like, that’s not operations. Operations is a warehouse full of cars. He’s like, “Oh, yeah, I guess you come from a very different place.”
Do you see yourselves at some point in the future offering auto loans yourselves, almost like pre-approval for auto loans? [24:54]
Chris: I think it’s a good question. It’s really hard to do when the deal is in the sales and finalization loop. Our initial focus is going to be on, essentially, swapping out bad loan for good loan. We can do that as soon as the day or three days after a consumer gets a loan. But the dealer ends up in the loop many times, and they sort of control all the paperwork to actually get the loan done. If you try and insert yourself in that process, they obviously want to make money. They’re going to try and get us out of that process. So it’s really hard, and a lot of startups have stumbled because it’s a good, powerful idea. But ultimately, you don’t control the decision that happens in the backroom when the deal gets done. And people forget that, still, 99% of car transactions are done completely offline. In your attempt to control that part of the offline process, you’re going to have 99 out of 100 customers drop out. I’m not sure what the COVID figures are, but it’s still very low. When people say “online sales,” there’s very little ability to do it other than these online retailers through Carvana or Vroom. There’s a guy on the phone, and maybe you consider that online, but it’s still very much offline.
Do you have any thoughts about buying out leases? [26:21]
Chris: Yeah, lease buyouts are a very interesting market too. So is transforming car purchases into leases. I think there’s a number of interesting financial products. We just have to start somewhere. We’re building up this portfolio of what we think consumers find valuable. Refinancing is a core way where we think we have a competitive edge to be valuable. The same can be said of the products that go along with a financing deal like warranties or gap insurance, and then we’d eventually partner with auto insurance brokerages as well to find new policies. And then from there, there’s even the disposition of the car. Right now, there’s one or two online vendors where you can get a firm online quote for what your car is actually worth. I think that number is only going to go up. This is a long way down the road, but how do we figure out the full lifecycle of car?
Nick: The big question is, why do we care? Because we’ve been in the car space for seven years. Chris and I actually thought we would start another company and try to get out of the car space. If you take a big step back, you realize that through what we’re doing, you’re putting more money into the consumers pockets. There’s people who are stuck in loans; they’re overpaying. If they didn’t have the loans, they could start saving money and build up wealth. Unfortunately, they’re stuck in these loans. They’re just doubling down and paying these auto loan companies. This is our part, even if only a little bit, to address income inequality in some way, because you enable people who want to get unstuck, who otherwise might build wealth slowly but surely, and then not pay 29% of their auto loans for six years. The important thing is to make it so easy that you can do it over the phone. That’s where we’re uniquely positioned.
The website, WithClutch.com, is version 1.0. We ran experiments. We’re in the process of closing a funding round and then making it look nice and shiny and actually functional. If you go there, it’ll be a manual experience for us in the background, but we can already help you.
What advice do you have for applicants, or would-be entrepreneurs, or even current entrepreneurs considering an MBA? Would you encourage it, and why? [29:54]
Nick: For me, I could have never gotten into the position of starting a company the way we started it, I just wouldn’t be here, if it wasn’t for my GSB experience. Granted, I came from Germany, so I needed to figure out how to come over here and get to know people, and understand the ecosystem. For an international founder or ambitious person who has ambitions to become a founder in his 20s, I would highly recommend it. A Stanford network or circle of friends is very, very powerful. You end up with amazing friends who open every door you want to have open. I couldn’t imagine it differently for myself. I think it would have been really tough to do the same thing without having a foot in the door. My roommate, she’s from South America, and she had a very similar journey. It’s possible. In the GSB, you can find your co-founder. That’s obviously hard sometimes to do. You have a better time. You’re in a very safe space. You get exposure. It helps you a lot when starting a business. I’d highly recommend it, but there’s other ways.
Chris: You just have to be deliberate around the reasons you’re doing something. If your end goal is to start a business in the shortest possible time frame, then the best way to do that is to just start a business. With an MBA, I think people end up saying, “Oh, I need to wait till all the perfect pieces align.” It’s just not going to happen. You need to force enough pieces to align to where you can make something happen. A lot of learning is almost accidental. You can be deliberate maybe 50% at best, but everything we thought would work at Carlypso didn’t work. The only way we got to something that worked well enough was by doing the thing that didn’t work.
You have to be open to this process of creative destruction. For me, going to business school was much more about having a social network on the west coast and meeting other like-minded ambitious people. I knew that it may not help with the explicit goal of doing other things. But at the same time, I didn’t have enough confidence to start a business by myself. Doing it with Nick gave me the push to go over the edge. I think it can be a good idea for the right person and for the right reasons, but know what those are, or at least have a guess as to what they are, and then be open to being wrong.
Nick: I remember one of the last lectures at Stanford was MGE, “Managing Growing Enterprises.” Typically, it’s a GSB class where protagonists come in and tell you their entrepreneurial story. This one he must have been a founder, and the entrepreneur himself said you need to understand that you’re now about to be post-MBA. You have this incredible, very unique situation and possibility in that your plan B is incredible. You can go to almost every tech company that you want to go to, or you can become a product manager. You can go to consulting. You can go to banking. So you don’t need to worry about paying your student loans or having a good lifestyle. What you should worry about is, how can you be as impactful as possible? One way to do that is to start a company. If you don’t do it now, who would do it?
That resonated with me a lot. It actually came up recently. We had this experience with selling our company, and a good outcome. I was in the exact same position again where I could stay an employee, but I was also trying to have a lot more impact, have a disproportionate upside, and my plan B is always going to be there. In fact, Chris actually signed an offer while in business school, and then we started with our classmates’ cars. We had a conversation with his future employer, and he said, “I have a unique opportunity here to pursue something that I’m really excited about.” So, he’s the perfect example of having this incredible plan B, but then he went to plan A.
It takes 10 years to build a business. The young ones in their 20s who are successful, their ignorance is a little bit of a bliss. They just stumbled into something. I think when you’re a second-time founder, you’re a lot more thoughtful around, what are the key hypotheses? And that might actually help.
To many people, it’s M7 or bust (M7 being the top MBA programs). Would you say that? Can you say, across the board, “Top or bust”? [35:35]
Nick: I only did one, so it’s very hard for me to speak to that. One sentence I heard a lot of people tell me before I applied was, “Do your best, but don’t be frustrated by the outcome if it’s not what you wanted because the right business school picks the right candidate.” I applied and didn’t even get interviewed by Harvard, for example. That felt like a disappointment during the process. At that time, I didn’t know that I was going to get into Stanford. But I personally feel like I’m so much a better fit for Stanford, given the slightly roller coaster-like resume of mine because I tried a lot of things. And if your resume and your background fits best into another business school that’s not among the top 10, that doesn’t mean your experience will be bad. I truly think that the business schools and the candidates pick themselves, and every experience will be valuable in some way.
Chris: I hate to give this answer, but I think once again, you just have to be deliberate around what you want out of it. If you’re looking for career advancement, and you go to the 38th-best business school expecting to have the same opportunities as someone who just graduated HBS? That’s not a realistic expectation. You also have to factor in, what does it cost you? If you’re paying the same for 38th, your career opportunities aren’t as good. That’s bad math. Figure out what you want, and then go into it eyes wide open, and don’t believe whatever a school is selling you on. Don’t take whatever the school says as gospel. Schools are selling you to go there, so have a healthy skepticism. And talk to alumni. They’re just like you, just a few years ahead of you. And if you can imagine yourself being a classmate and friend with that person, then do it.
There’s nothing wrong with going to a school that’s not top one, two, three, seven, or whatever the number is. It’s also helpful to talk to people who got in but didn’t go. That’s the other helpful audience that people often neglect too. Anyone who’s gone, they don’t know how their life would have worked out otherwise, but the people who didn’t go know how their life worked out. That’s another healthy audience, to get a holistic view.
What are your plans going forward? [38:30]
Chris: Right now, we’re knee-deep in this business. We’re in the very early stages of product market fit. I think this is one of the most fun stages, doing everything you can to find a product that consumers love and provide value to them. I think this is the most fun stage of a company in my opinion, and I tend to be less good at the “come up with the processes for managing 18 people” type of thing. I think this is well-suited to my skill set, what I’m eager about, and the problem I really know well. We’re just eager to be heads-down a little bit.
Nick: I’m a little bit better at the later stage. But I have Chris to be creative. He tells me his 10 ideas, and I’ll tell him, “Let’s start with these two.” What I’m somewhat excited about, or nervous, but not in a bad way, is that the world is very different now than the last time we ran a company. We had the team in one office. We made a conscious effort of engineering and product and service, customer service and success and the warehouse, all in one building. We were really close to each other and could build culture. That’s already panning out to be not the case right now. Building culture is a very conscious and deliberate effort. But the upside is you can work with really talented people from across the world.
I’m looking forward to a lot of the conversations we have with people who are not even in the US. I think that’s an interesting one. And then obviously, there’s the topic of diversity and building really powerful companies that are very inclusive. Another topic is culture. That’s something that was important five years ago, but it’s very much at the surface right now. We have a responsibility there, and I’m excited to see how I can contribute.
What would you have liked me to ask you? [40:27]
Nick: “Do I know somebody who’s trying to apply?” It’s an interesting conversation to have with candidates, whether or not to get help in their essays and telling their story. I remember back then, there was a stigma around getting help. I don’t know what it is today. It’s good to get help. For me, I got a little help. For me, it was like a therapy session. “What do you really care about?” The essay was about what matters most to you and why, and I gave my first draft, and it was very different from the essay I submitted. I felt like I learned a lot. So I’m giving that advice to applicants, especially the ones who are not from the US: These are essays we’re not used to writing anywhere else but in the US. Getting help is just part of the journey.
Chris: One interesting question is, “How do you think the MBA needs to evolve given the experiences you’ve had?” I think, to some degree, the curriculum’s a little too rigid on these old school management skills in some way. You need to learn the basics of accounting; you need to learn the basics of XYZ. I think those are important fundamentals. But I think in other ways, there’s ways to see whether people know enough that they can immerse themselves in very different experiences and explore very different things in this very finite two years. Some of the most useful classes for us were around these new venture explorations for people who wanted to do startups, or to go 10 levels deeper in investment theory. Anytime you’re doing basic skills that you sort of already know, you’re taking away from these more exploratory topics.
For me, I wanted to do a little more on computer science, so I took some computer science classes while I was at Stanford. I thought that was super interesting, just to gain a fundamental understanding. I think being a little more flexible with what the curriculum could be rather than rigid skills requirements. Because part of the goal here is to teach people how to teach themselves, more so than give them concrete skill sets. I think the more you can instill that in them in the future, the better off you’re going to be with candidates and students and former students who can actually go ahead and do that.
Where can listeners learn more about WithClutch, your latest venture? [43:05]
Nick: The easiest way to learn more is to go to WithClutch.com. Alternatively, and this has been happening more and more lately, and I love it, is when people connect with us directly on LinkedIn. Just look for Chris Coleman or Nicholas Hinrichsen if you want advice, be it for your application or if you want to refinance your car. We’ll help with that too. I find LinkedIn has become a very valuable platform, and I’d love feedback. Feedback is a gift. For whatever reason you want to get in touch, feel free to get in touch.
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