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Show Summary
Katherine Scannell, Vice Dean for Institutional Success at Washington University in St. Louis School of Law, discusses the distinctive elements of WashU’s JD program. She highlights the individualized focus on students’ career goals and the broad areas of expertise that students can specialize in. Dean Scannell emphasizes the importance of early career services and guidance for students before they start law school. She also talks about WashU’s response to the growth of AI in the legal world. Listeners will learn about the interview process at WashU and hear Dean Scanell’s advice. Dean Scannell shares her thoughts on the importance of networking and building relationships with lawyers and professionals in the field and offers her tips on how to do this thoughtfully.
Show Notes
Thanks for joining me for this, the 579th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free.
Now for today’s interview. I’m delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time Dean Katherine Scannell, Vice Dean for Institutional Success at Washington University in St. Louis. Dean Scannell earned her bachelor’s degree from Wash U and her JD from the University of Missouri. She practiced law for several years and then joined Washington University in St. Louis Law School, becoming first Assistant Dean of Career Services and then Associate Dean of Admissions and today she is the Vice Dean for Institutional Success at Washington University in St. Louis School of Law. Since 2009, she has also been a Lecturer in Law at Wash U.
Dean Scannell, thank you for joining me for Admissions Straight Talk. [2:05]
Thank you for having me. I’m so happy to be here.
Can you give us an overview of the more distinctive elements of WashU’s JD program? [2:14]
Yes. So WashU’s program is interesting, because we have so many broad areas of expertise that you can kind of focus on, and we really focus individually with each student to think about their career goals. We start that even before students start law school. So this summer, we’re working with the class that’ll be coming in in the fall to help educate them on the possibilities, what they can do with their law degree, and just let them hit the ground running.
So I think that’s unique, how we start early, and then we have a lot of very individualized opportunities at WashULaw in the educational experience and to support their long-term career goals, because most students are coming to law school to practice law, right?
So we want to help them understand what all the paths are, and that can help shape the classes, the courses they take here. We do a lot of interdisciplinary work that is interesting, like our Cordell Institute in law and medicine. And so, we collaborate with our highly ranked medical school here to think about policy, privacy, and data issues. So things like that we’ve really dug in that provide interesting experiences for our students and educational opportunities.
Wonderful. I’m actually very impressed that you started out with the idea of career services before they even start. I don’t think I’ve gotten that answer from any law school admissions dean. I’m a big believer in graduate school, in general, being a means to an end. That implies you have to have some idea of what “end” you want, and law is an incredibly broad field. I think it’s fantastic that you provide that guidance, even before somebody steps foot on campus. [3:58]
That has been a very unique and very important part of our mission in the Career Center. And I should say in the admissions office, even when we’re talking with students about why law school, they may not know exactly why law school at that point. Some of them know more than others, and we kind of get the full spectrum, but we start to talk with them about the things that can open doors in their careers. And we do recruit a large contingent of first-generation students, and those students… I was a first-generation college student. And so, from a personal standpoint, I know that it’s really hard when you don’t know what you don’t know.
Our Career Center has helped educate our admissions office on some questions to ask and things to talk about even early in that admissions cycle, and even with students who may not end up at WashU, but hopefully, we’re helping educate them in the whole process.
You mentioned the breadth of offerings at WashU, and that was something that struck me when I was preparing for our call. I also noticed that you have three certificate programs, one in public interest law, one in business and corporate law, and one in international and comparative law. Can you discuss those programs for a second? [5:48]
Sure. We try to bring in students with a wide range of interests. Like I said, they often change their minds once they’re here, and that’s totally fine. But we do like to bring in students with varying backgrounds and varying goals, and we think that adds to the educational experience, really elevates the educational experience, those different perspectives.
So we give the opportunity for students. As you mentioned, JD is very broad. You can do so many things with the JD. And so, we do give the opportunity for students who know they want to get some extra coursework and specialize in those areas to do that during their JD programs. So they’ll have a number of classes that they have to take that are designated in those different bucket areas to obtain those certificates. We also have LLM programs that our students can obtain, and some of them you can obtain in the three years. You can get a joint JD/LLM.
Tax is one of those. You can get a joint JD/Tax LLM. We have an LLM with a concentration in negotiation and dispute resolution. And that one you can also do in that three years.
I’m in Los Angeles, so I’m on the other coast. How does WashU’s location in St. Louis affect the learning experience and job opportunities, obviously you’re very career-focused, of its graduates? I mean, I normally fly over St. Louis. Can WashU law grads go to the coasts? [7:26]
Absolutely. Most of our students end up outside… So we are a very national school. Our students, typically summers and postgrad, go to over 30 states and several countries. And so, our students are going everywhere. It fluctuates year to year what our second-largest placement will be. It might be New York. It might be D.C. It might be Chicago. I mean, they’re all pretty big, and it fluctuates each year. It’s exciting. So you’re one of our challenges, right?
Really, though, when students are thinking about coming to WashULaw, we like to get them here so that they can see the campus and see the benefits of St. Louis as the place to go to law school and where it can take you, because even during the three years, the six semesters, many of our students will do the externship in D.C., which has been around for, I think, almost 50 years now.
And the externship in New York, we have… I mentioned being individualized earlier, and this is part of that. We have a semester-in-practice program. So if there’s an organization doing the exact type of work that’ll help prepare you for your postgraduate work, that can be anywhere in the world for a whole semester.
We have a lot of states and countries represented in our JD class. And then we find that a lot of those individuals do go to locations, not necessarily where they were from, but go to locations outside of St. Louis after, although I have to say our people from the coasts sometimes get to St. Louis and think, “Wow, quality of life here is great.” And sometimes our Midwesterners leave and go to the coast, and our coast people come and decide to stay. So it’s fun.
I have some kids who’ve gone to smaller places than Los Angeles, and they’re very happy there because of the quality of life. It’s just a reality. [10:05]
Yes. Yes.
How is WashU responding to the growth of AI and its impact on the legal world? [10:17]
Yeah. That is fast, right? It’s just exploding. I mentioned our Cordell Institute earlier, and that’s certainly a space where we’re looking at privacy issues and data issues, policy as related to healthcare. So that is an incredibly interesting center for us. And then we have some faculty like Professor Pauline Kim, does work in looking at algorithms and AI in the labor and employment space primarily. A number of our faculty are using big data in their scholarship as well. So we are certainly looking from a legal scholarship perspective. A number of our faculty are diving into that space. You may have been asking from a student perspective.
I was thinking more like lawyers if they wanted to do research. In the last 40 years, you had LexisNexis which definitely saved people a lot of time. But with AI coming, it’s changing so much, whether writing briefs, adapting templates that lawyers frequently use, or doing research saying. [11:23]
Yes, it is, but we don’t want to depend on it. So I think we have kind of dug into… We’re not ignoring it, but we don’t want to depend on it. And our legal practice and legal research courses are very intense, and we don’t have the students using AI to produce that work product. Right now, I think, I mean, you’ve probably read some of the articles, but you can really get yourself into some trouble if you’re not careful. And so, I think that our approach is a little more on that side of things. Yeah.
And you’re just watching how things develop. [12:28]
Absolutely, and watching what law firms expect. So our Career Center works very closely with law firms to see what the skill sets that they expect to see in their summer associates and new associates. So as law firms utilize different tools more and more, we bring that back to the law school and think about how best to make sure our students are prepared.
Let’s turn to the application. WashU says that applicants may apply with the GRE, but if they have an LSAT, the LSAT will be used. Does that policy reflect a preference for the LSAT very bluntly? [12:59]
Not necessarily, but transparently, most of our students have an LSAT.
It’s a small percentage, always a percentage every year that have the GRE instead. A little bit, but not dramatically. And it’s not necessarily a preference for the LSAT, but we will use all the pieces of data. So if they took the LSAT, we’re not going to ignore it. And the ABA, we report the LSAT to the American Bar Association. So it’s not something that we would just want to pretend like it’s not there. It gives us another data point.
But we do have an interesting program at WashULaw where applicants can ask that their LSAT score be redacted for purposes of the admissions committee. Now, we obviously have to see it later and have to report it, but the admissions committee could admit a student, an applicant based on everything else in their file is so amazing.
And before looking at the LSAT, they may put some parameters on that sometimes, like, “It can’t be below this,” or it just depends on each individual circumstance. But there is an opportunity for applicants if they feel that the LSAT detracts from the rest of their application to ask that their application be reviewed without access to that score.
Wow. And then, obviously, they have to have the GRE, right? [14:51]
Well, they have to have the LSAT or GRE, but we’re just saying that the committee wouldn’t see it when making the decision about whether to admit.
Are you considering the JD-Next at all? [15:08]
We have. We did ask for approval. And so, we’ve been approved to consider JD-Next candidates, and we’ll consider those. I don’t know how many we’ll get, but I think that approval just, I want to say, came through in the last few months.
I know it’s very new. We’ve been talking a little bit about academics, and we’ll continue to talk about academics, but there’s experience or there’s experiential learning that goes on when somebody has a job or responsibilities or joins a team. What kind of experience, either during college or full-time after college, is good preparation for Washington University School of Law? [15:30]
Let’s see. A lot of different experiences can be good, so I don’t want to discount experiences.
I think having to interact with different types of people is a good experience for WashULaw. We value that. We value non-law experiences on that note. Sometimes students who really had to overcome some particular hardships, those can be great experiences to bring that resilience. I know it’s overused, resilience, but resilience is important. Law school’s hard. And so, students who bring that kind of experience, I think, are very helpful.
Students who are curious. We do look for kind, because you can be very passionate about your perspective, but we really want to create a culture of kindness and respect. So we look for that in the process. Legal experience can be great, not necessary.
But there’s something that if you’ve worked in a law firm, you have a little bit of context coming into law school, especially if you don’t know lawyers, you don’t have lawyers in your family. A little bit of that legal experience can provide you some context that I think can be a benefit.
Do you like people with full-time work experience post-college? [17:16]
We do. So most of our students… I’m sorry, I should have started there, but most of our students do have some full-time work experience after college before coming to law school.
What addenda does WashU accept, and which applicants should write them? [17:37]
Our prompts are very broad, and that’s intentional. We probably fall down a little bit more, maybe even than some other schools, on wanting to know more about each of the applicants. So we welcome addenda on any number of topics. It could be experiences that you didn’t feel you got to fully describe in other parts of your application.
It could be something about why your grades were so low in undergrad, or some context to questions that you… If you think we’re going to ask the question, we encourage you to write an addenda about it so that you can answer it for us and we don’t have to wonder. So we encourage students to really provide as much information as they feel comfortable and as they would feel comfortable talking about with us in their application.
Are you planning any changes to the application for next year? The requirements, the essays, addenda, or anything else. [18:51]
We’re working on that right now, but I don’t anticipate any major changes in the application this year.
WashU’s 1L class had a 173 median LSAT and a 3.95 median GPA. You can’t get much higher in either one of those numbers. Obviously, the stats are important, but my guess is that you admit people with lower stats and reject people with higher stats. So what makes the difference? [19:11]
Absolutely. It is not a formula. It is a discussion about every candidate, and the committee has such hard decisions to make, because so many people who, I’m sure, could be fantastic at WashULaw don’t get an admission. So the thing that can make the difference is maybe a unique experience or perspective. It’s hard to say any one thing. I mean, we value strong writing. We value professional engagement. I mentioned that we look for kindness. We like ambitious students, but you can be incredibly ambitious and talented and kind and respectful. That’s a very important piece for us. We want students from different geographic locations, different countries. We’ll often have about 10 countries represented in the 1L class. And so, we’re kind of looking just to balance all of that out and create the best mix of students in the 1L class as we can.
One of the distinctive aspects of the WashU application process or admissions process for law school at least, is the interview. Most law schools don’t interview. Some do, so it’s not unique, but it is a minority. Who is invited to interview, and what can the interviewee expect? [20:53]
The committee decides who to invite to interview, and it’s typically candidates that they want to find out a little bit more about. And so, they do it in waves, and it’s not everybody at once, because we can only interview so many people at once.
But they hope to get to know the candidate outside of the paper a little bit more. And so, all of the interviews at WashU are done by our admissions team, and that’s a little bit unique even for some schools who do interviews. At least that’s my understanding. Some schools will have alums do interviews, but the committee does ask us, “What did we learn in the interview? What was your impression of this person, and how do you think they would fit in our community?” And things like that.
So we do all the interviews so that we can have consistent feedback for the committee that’s valuable in the process. So we do all of the interviews. In the interviews, the applicant should be themselves. I know it’s hard not to be nervous, but be yourself. And we know that candidates get nervous, so we take that into account. Be authentic in their answers.
Relax? [22:39]
Yeah. Although don’t be too relaxed.
We’ve had candidates who show up in basically their pajamas, and we’re thinking, “It doesn’t really matter what your LSAT is, right?”
We have a judgment issue. I don’t think that happens a lot, but you want to be professional. You’re coming to a professional school. You are entering this profession where you want to be honest and authentic and professional in your behavior. So be relaxed, and don’t be overly nervous, but do think about how you will be perceived, and then think about some questions.
We are going to give you an opportunity, just like in an interview, to ask us questions, and we want to know that you want to be here. And so, think about some questions ahead of time that demonstrate that you’ve done a little bit of research and you want to be here. You don’t have to spend hours and hours, but it’s pretty easy to find a few things on our website typically that you could ask about.
Is it possible to get admitted without being interviewed, or are all accepted students interviewed? [24:05]
It is possible to get admitted without being interviewed, but usually, I would say… This is when it might be possible. If that applicant has had other types of engagement with us, the committee might not feel that they need to ask them to interview.
So it’s not a required piece, and there are many opportunities to engage with our office. And we may know you really well already, and then that applicant may not be asked to interview.
I assume the interviews are virtual? [24:50]
Yes.
Is the interview based on the application? In other words, is it questions that the admissions committee has about the applicant based on the application, or is it more behavioral in general? [24:58]
It’s a mix, and every interview is not exactly the same.
So some of it’s driven by the applicant and by the information in the application. We always read the application and have questions based on the application before the interview, and then we may have some behavioral questions about biggest failure or along those lines. And then we have some time for the applicant to ask us some questions.
We’ve discussed AI in terms of students using AI. What do you think of applicants using ChatGPT to assist them in the application process, specifically the writing process? [25:52]
We would prefer they not.
Writing is such an important part of law school. We do ask on our application, “Did you use AI in preparing this application?” And the applicant can answer yes, and then we ask, “How did you use AI?” So we have some who answer yes, most answer no. A lot say, “I used something like Grammarly.” We think it’s important that we have a genuine assessment of the skills and the writing, and things like that. So we would prefer they not or minimally use AI. Yes.
I recently had occasion to write something. I mean, nothing to do with admissions or Accepted. And I just said, “Please edit this.” It came back. I absolutely hated it. I just threw it out, went back to what I wrote, and did my own editing. [26:51]
Yes. I find that pretty frequently, so I don’t feel like AI is there yet for some of the things.
It’s not the cat’s meow. Some things, like for smaller tasks, I found it useful. But just, “Go write something for me,” or “Rewrite what I’ve written,” it was awful.
Does WashU consider update letters from applicants who have something significant to tell you after they submit their application and before hearing back from you, after the interview, or if wait-listed? At what point is that welcome? [27:32]
It is always welcome at WashU.
We have a very fluid, back-and-forth conversation with the applicants, and encourage them to reach out to us. Even if they don’t have a substantive update on their end, we try to put ourselves in their shoes. And it’s really hard. You hear, “Apply early. Apply early. Apply early.” And then it’s like, “Hurry up and wait.” Right?
And when you’re not in the middle of it, just looking at it from the applicant’s perspective, it can just feel like, “What’s happening over there? And why did that person get admitted but I didn’t yet?”
So we really encourage applicants to reach out anytime, even if it’s just like, “I just want to see what’s happening.” And we may not have much to tell them yet, but that’s okay. So I don’t want them to call us every day. That might not be good, but use your judgment. We do encourage them to reach out with substantive updates, and even just to check in is completely fine.
This show should air in a few weeks. I don’t know when you close your waitlist, but there might still be some wait-listed applicants. What advice do you have for those currently on the waitlist or perhaps on it next year? [29:10]
For applicants who are on the waitlist, again, we encourage them to reach out. We’re happy to talk through options. If they have any substantive updates, obviously let us know. One thing I think it’s important for wait list applicants to think about is, “How long do I want to stay on the waitlist?” It’s not often, but sometimes there is a very, very late opportunity that someone had personal issues and they had to pull out of the class.
And so, there could be a very late opportunity. And for some applicants, that’s just going to create additional stress, and we want to respect what they want in this process also. So if they want us, they can tell us how long they want to stay on the wait list. And while they’re on the wait list, we’re happy to speak with them about the other options, if they would like to think about transferring as a 2L. We take a pretty small transfer class typically, but it’s usually individuals we were very impressed with, we got to know during the process the prior year, and then they decide to transfer.
We hope everyone ends up at a law school that they love, and they decide they don’t want to transfer, but sometimes you start somewhere and it’s not the right fit for you. And so then, we encourage them to reach out to us as early as they are thinking about that.
Sounds like great advice. Do you have advice for reapplicants? [31:07]
Every cycle is different. And so, we know they can’t create a whole new application. A lot of things are going to be the same. But what’s going to be important is what’s happened in the past year since they first applied, and how they productively used that year will be important. So you always want to update your application and make it clear how you’ve worked to make your application a little stronger in that year.
I often get a question along these lines, “You know, I applied. I thought my personal statement was really good. I thought my LSAT was low. I retook my LSAT. I got a much higher score. I really don’t want to rewrite my personal statement.” How would you respond to that? [31:55]
We’re probably going to look at your application from last year and look at the application from this year. So it’s kind of like a waste if you didn’t use your personal statement to tell us even more great stuff about you.
I mean, it gives you kind of another shot at, “You know this about me, and now I can tell you even more about myself in this context.”
WashU’s stated regular decision deadline is January 3rd. Do you accept applications after that date since that’s fairly early in the cycle? Is the deadline staying the same next year? [32:57]
We really continue to accept applications. We encourage applications early, because we have a rolling process. And so, the committee is going to admit some candidates early, and we think it’s best if you can be in the mix as early as possible. We even encourage applicants who haven’t taken the LSAT or the GRE yet to get their application in and then supplement with those scores later. So we do encourage early, but we don’t have a hard-and-fast… I mean, obviously, once we’ve set the class, we’re not going to take more applications, but we will accept applications even into the summer.
And sometimes it’s hard to predict how the class is going to fall out. We say that there aren’t so many seats left at this point. Right? Maybe none, but it doesn’t hurt to apply. You’re not looked down on for applying this year if you want to give it a shot. So there’s no real downside, and then you can apply again next year if it doesn’t work out.
What advice do you have for those planning ahead to apply either this cycle, in other words, fall 2024, or really planning ahead for fall 2025 or later? [34:57]
Study for whichever test you’re going to take.
It just opens doors. It’s like what I say, open as many doors as you can. So get to know the schools, and talk with lawyers, if you can, and talk with the schools. We have a lot of opportunities through WashU to learn about careers if you’re a prospective law student, to learn about the application process, to do workshops.
If you have that time, really take advantage of that to make your application the very best it can be. You have this extra time to start thinking about it. I always say talk with lawyers, but do be cautious that some lawyers, who have been out as long as I have and are not in higher ed right now, have a different perspective on how things work. So make sure, listen to everyone, make connections, build your network. Building your network is something that you should always be doing, and you can always learn something from everyone you speak with, even if it is, “I never want to do that kind of law.”
It’s quite valuable. And it’s fun to get to know people and learn something about them. So the more you do that, I think the better position you are coming into law school, in many ways. So that’s my advice, and have fun with it, though. Don’t make it a chore. Just have fun with it.
I think that’s wonderful advice. What was going through my head, though, is sometimes when you talk about networking or building a network, there’s a certain unpleasantness to it. It’s like you’re almost using people. How can you build a network constructively in a human and kind way? [37:02]
Yes. As soon as the word “network”, because it does still come out of my mouth, but I do feel like it has this connotation to it that is not what I intend.
It’s actually really fun, especially in that period where you’re not looking for a job, to get to know people and learn. So we encourage our students to do informational meetings.
And you don’t have an ask, and we also encourage students to keep them short. And I would say this for prelaw also, when you’re in that space and you haven’t started law school yet. Just ask if you can speak with someone for 10 minutes. Everyone is so busy. Have a few great questions, and don’t take more time than that, because then they’ll want to talk with you next time you call too.
And if you authentically are interested in what they do, it doesn’t feel like you’re using them. It can be a really great experience for both the attorney and for the individual, the future attorney, who’s asking the questions. Often, attorneys like to talk about themselves and their work. They’re usually pretty excited about that. And so, you can just learn something. And hopefully, everyone who’s coming to law school likes to learn. So I look at it that way, and follow up authentically with updates. They would love to know.
And thank-yous. When you decide where to go to law school, let them know. And just short emails, keeping them updated. And if you really don’t connect with someone, you don’t have to pretend. Meet people and let those professional relationships grow organically.
I think this is a really good point. I once had somebody on the podcast who’d written a book about coffee chats. It was a Stanford Graduate School of Business alum, and he and another student had written this book, and it was like, “Invite somebody out for coffee. Invite them out for lunch if they have the time, and you’re willing to do it,” or you say, “Ask for a 10-minute call. Be appreciative. Be kind. Maybe you can help them with something.” It doesn’t always have to be taking, taking, taking. Try and be a giving person in the relationship also. [39:39]
Absolutely. And even with coffees, I say offer to take them to coffee, but also offer to go to their office. That’s the easiest thing for them. Bring them the coffee, because even just leaving the office to go meet at a coffee shop can sometimes be a bit of a burden when you’re working really hard and trying to bill all those hours.
So I try to always be respectful of the requests. And also provide some information about yourself. I encourage students to say, “So that you’ll have some background about me, I’ve attached my résumé, not because I’m asking you for a job, it’s just because I want you to know a little bit about me.” And so, not have any real ask out of it other than the 10 minutes.
Great advice. Thank you so much. Katie, I think we’re almost out of time. I want to respect your time, and I want to thank you again for joining me and sharing your expertise and your insight into WashU Law School. Where can listeners learn more about Washington University in St. Louis School of Law? [41:09]
So you can email our office. You can call if you want to be old school about it. We are happy to receive a phone call. You can go to our website, which is https://law.wustl.edu/. We have workshops on Discord. We have live Zoom programs all year long with our Career Center and with our admissions office, and we have one of our best resources, I think, our one-on-one consultations. You don’t have to say you want to apply here. You don’t have to. If you just want help with how to apply to law school or how to learn more about law school, you can do a one-on-one consultation with one of our admissions ambassadors. They can even look over your personal statements. They’re current students who have been trained. We don’t want the people in the admissions office to be giving that direct advice, because that doesn’t seem appropriate. But they are happy to speak with prospective law students just about what it means to be in law school. You can just ask any questions, and they’ll give you their take on, from their perspective, what their experience has been.
Relevant Links:
- Washington University in St. Louis School of Law Admissions
- Are You Ready for Law School? (Accepted’s free Law School Admissions Quiz)
Related Shows:
- How to Get into USC Gould School of Law, podcast Episode 573
- JD-Next: A Great Option for Law School Applicants, podcast Episode 562
- How to Get into the University of Chicago Law School, podcast Episode 559
- Navigating the Law School Admissions Process, podcast Episode 550
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