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Show Summary

Ranked number three in U.S. News’ most recent rankings, the law school at the University of Chicago is a top law school famous for its intellectual rigor. In this podcast episode, Linda Abraham interviews Dean Ann Perry, Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid at the  University of Chicago Law School. Dean Perry discusses the distinctive elements of the law school, including its engaged student body, expert faculty, and interdisciplinary approach to legal study. She also provides insights into the admissions process, including tips for the personal statement. 

Show Notes

Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs, be it the University of Chicago or any other program? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, take the quiz and you will not only get an assessment, but you’ll receive tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. And it’s all free. 

I’m delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Ann Perry, Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid at the law school at the University of Chicago. Prior to joining the University of Chicago Law School community as assistant dean for Admissions in 2002, Dean Perry was the assistant dean for student affairs and financial aid at the University of Illinois College of Law. Before entering the world of law school administration, she was an associate at Stellato & Schwartz in Chicago. Dean Perry received her AB and JD from the University of Illinois. 

Dean Perry, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:00]

Thank you very much, Linda. I’m happy to be here.

Can you give an overview of the more distinctive elements of the Law School of the University of Chicago? [2:07]

Yes, I’m happy to do that. I’ve been at the law school for over 20 years, and so what I find makes UChicago Law distinctive are a few things. 

First, it’s our students. We bring very engaged students to the law school through the admissions process, students who are engaged in their learning, both inside and outside the classroom. And we’re a small community, we only have a total JD enrollment of about 600 students. So really, it’s an active, engaged learning community, so we bring these students that are just very much part of their learning process.

Second, I’d like to highlight our faculty. Our faculty are experts in their fields, but also why they’re here is because their first love is teaching. They really engage with students not just in the classroom, obviously, but outside the classroom. I constantly see that as I’m walking through the halls. It’s not a mistake that all the faculty’s offices are located in the library where students tend to study. Students will see their faculty members coming back and forth, it’s generally an open-door policy, and the faculty want that engagement. But also, and the final point I’d like to make is that we’re part of the University of Chicago, a great university that has a lot to offer, and it really helps foster the interdisciplinary approach to the study of law that we really find is important these days when you’re learning the law.

You mentioned the interdisciplinary approach, and that leads to my next question. The University of Chicago Law School has a real focus on the interdisciplinary approach to legal study. How is that manifested in the program practically? [3:35]

That’s a great question because people talk about it a lot. Here at Chicago, we really live it, and it starts actually during your first year. We have a class that I think is unique to the University of Chicago Law School, our Elements of the Law class, which every first-year student takes as part of that first-year curriculum. And it is really the first introduction to the interdisciplinary approach to the study of law. The professor will discuss law and economics, law and philosophy, law and political science, law and psychology. And it’s a way for students to hear that and start processing and learning that way as they continue through their time here at the law school.

We allow our students to take up to four classes in other divisions on campus. That doesn’t include the many cross-listed classes between different divisions. The other thing is that a number of our faculty also hold PhDs in different disciplines like history and political science, and they bring that knowledge into their classroom discussion. So you’re hearing how law affects many different areas. I believe that we really live this interdisciplinary approach. Like I mentioned, being on the main campus of the University of Chicago just makes that approach so easy.

We bring five Booth classes to the law school every year, and they’re taught under a law number, so they’re easier for our students to get into. That’s just the interdisciplinary approach we want. We want these students to be able to interact in all different areas.

Could you mention a few of the other non-law classes that are part of the law school? [5:40]

Well, we have law and philosophy. Professor Martha Nussbaum teaches those, which are very interesting for our students. We have these Booth classes that are taught by some of the Booth faculty and corporate finance entrepreneurship. So it’s really giving our students a breadth of opportunity to learn, not just with law, but outside the law too.

Does the University of Chicago Law School use different methods of instruction like experiential, Socratic, and lecture? Or does one predominate? [6:12]

I think we very much use all of those. There aren’t really lecture classes. It’s really the Socratic method in our classes, which I think is a really fascinating way to learn. It’s more of a dialogue between the professor and the student in the Socratic method where questions are being answered, questions are being asked, and then it takes the discussion down different paths depending on how the students are answering, depending on the questions the faculty member’s asking. I really believe then the professor is really on call in a way because they don’t know how a student might answer a question. So I think the Socratic method is fascinating, but also the experiential learning we have.

We have 15 different clinical opportunities for our students to take, and it’s a broad range. We have, just to name a few, our Civil Rights and Police Accountability Project, our Supreme Court Clinic, corporate labs, housing clinic, and juvenile justice. So there’s a broad range where I really think students are going to be able to jump into the clinic and just get some of that hands-on experience helping people that otherwise couldn’t afford legal representation and benefiting our community here in Chicago.

Where do most graduates of Chicago Law go professionally, not just in terms of geography, but in terms of career focus and firm size? It sounds like there are roughly 200 graduates, or 190 students, in each graduating class. What percentage goes into the private sector? [7:41]

I think at this point about 65-70% goes into private practice and firms, a majority of it large firms geographically all over the country. I like to say our students can really get a job wherever they want, but our biggest markets are New York, DC, LA, San Francisco, Chicago, and Texas markets are getting very popular. We have alums everywhere, so our students have resources in other smaller markets or different markets if they want to try somewhere else.

But one thing I want to mention that we do really well is placing our students in clerkships. Supreme Court clerkships to federal court clerkships to state clerkships. Roughly last year’s graduating class, close to 28% of them did a clerkship immediately after graduation, and that doesn’t take into account the number of alums that might go do a clerkship after a couple of years of working. And currently at this term of the Supreme Court, we have three of our alums clerking at the Supreme Court level.

We’re very fortunate, And our clerkship numbers are so strong. I believe it’s because the resources we help our students with. We have three members of our career services team who work on the clerkship process with them, from applying to which judges to apply for. We have a faculty committee that works with students interested in clerkships. A potential clerkship is a nice capstone to a legal education. And coming to Chicago, we help you get there.

Can you describe the Binding Early Decision Program? [9:58]

Our Binding Early Decision Program is really for an applicant who really has decided that Chicago’s their first choice, and that they really want to be at the University of Chicago Law School. It’s binding, so once you’re admitted it’s expected that you’re going to come. You apply by December 1st and you’ll hear by the end of December. It’s a smaller program. I know these undergrad admissions cycles tend to focus a little bit more on the early decision part of it, but I think here we probably admit about 15 to 20% of the class early decision. So it’s not a huge number, and it’s truly for someone who believes Chicago’s their first choice.

Is an applicant at a disadvantage applying in January or February for your March 1 deadline when compared to applicants who will apply earlier in the cycle, even if not in the Binding Early Decision Program? [10:52]

We usually open our applications around September 1st every year and our deadline is March 1st. We review applications on a rolling basis and in the order that they’re completed. So we are already reviewing regular decision applications as well, but we won’t start rolling out those decisions till January, sometime in January, probably closer to the end than the beginning. So I think someone applying in January or February, we have still been reviewing, but we have admitted applicants that apply after in January and February. So it just kind of depends on their application. But there is this rolling process. I want to let students know that we are already reviewing regular decisions, but we won’t start releasing until the end of January.

For the student applying in the 2024/2025 cycle and listening to this podcast who doesn’t want to bind themselves to Chicago, is there an optimal time to apply? [11:57]

I think as soon as your application is ready. Make sure you’ve spent the time you’ve wanted on the application. Never rush the application. I think sometimes if you get it in sooner, you’re just in the queue sooner to get in front of the admissions committee. We started accepting applications in September. We have a fair number now in December, but we’re not even at halfway of what we get.

The University of Chicago Law accepts the LSAT and the GRE and then in a limited set of circumstances, the GMAT. Are you finding that the GRE is equally predictive of future success in law school? [12:38]

We are seeing that the GRE is helping to be predictive for us, but it’s still by far that most applicants apply with the LSAT. Even those who are applying with the GRE, sometimes also include the LSAT, have taken an LSAT, which they have to do. The GRE and the GMAT, for that matter, are really mostly being seen used for our joint degree students, for students that are applying to, let’s say a PhD program on campus, to the business school, even though now Chicago Booth does accept the LSAT as part of their application process. But we find that, by far the vast majority of the students are still submitting the LSAT.

What would be your recommendation to an applicant in choosing between the two tests? Use the LSAT unless you’re doing the dual degree, is that basically it? [13:34]

That probably would be my recommendation because there are still schools that don’t accept the GRE, so they’ll be limiting themselves if they don’t take the LSAT as well.

But I mean it’s also their choice too. If they’re really narrowing down their choices and what they want to do, of where they want to apply, then they might be okay. But it’s really, they’re going to have to think that through.

Your website gives excellent tips for the personal statement. In addition to those, do you have other tips for the personal statement? Should the personal statement to Chicago Law address why the applicant wants to go into law? And how about why Chicago Law? [14:08]

I find the personal statement is probably one of the hardest things in the application process for law school applicants. It’s very hard to write about yourself. I think students need to remember that this is their way to introduce themselves to the admissions committee, meaning that it’s a way to tell us what type of nonacademic contribution you’re going to bring to the class. What has gotten you to this point that you’re applying to law school? I really don’t necessarily think you have to tell us what type of law you want to practice, or what you want to be when you get done with law school because I think three years of a legal education might change what you’re initially thinking of, but it’s really a way for us to get to know you.

One thing I like to remind people to do is not to just rewrite their resume because we have that resume, and that resume is very important as it provides us with a roadmap of what you’ve done to get to this point, but you can obviously take an experience on that resume, a summer internship, a couple of years of your work experience that has maybe helped you grow into this idea of going to law school and becoming a lawyer. But it really kind of needs to tell us about you. If you want to let us know why applying to UChicago and you can add it to your personal statement without it taking away from other things, by all means, do that. But we also have the ability for that. We ask you to write an addendum to give us. We have some instructions in our application. And one of the addendums you can write is about why Chicago. And so I would use that opportunity too to provide additional information if you want it.

Do you like to see experience that is closely related to law, like working in a legal office or legal clinic, for example? [16:23]

By no means does it have to be. If people have no idea what lawyers do, I recommend trying to get experience like that so they know what they’re getting themselves into. It’s not going to be like what you see on TV or anything like that. I think if they can get that experience, great, but I also realize that that type of experience is sometimes difficult to get, and not everyone can have that. What I encourage students to do is to find experiences where they’re going to grow, where they might challenge themselves, and where they can exhibit dedication and commitment to something during a summer experience or during some time away after they graduate from undergrad. I think that helps show maturity and readiness for a professional career. There are different ways you can show that in the application process.

Is full-time work experience a nice-to-have at Chicago Law or is it important? [17:24]

I have to say probably 25% of our students came straight through last year, so 75% have some type of experience. It’s by no means a necessity. But what I’d like to tell students is that once you start law school, your career will take off. You’ll have summer jobs, you’ll graduate, hopefully have a job, and then your career takes off. There’s not going to be a natural break again. So the break between undergrad and law school is a natural break, and if you feel you want to try something else, or we have people that go and do Teach for America, go do the Peace Corps, go work in a bank, go work in food service. We see a lot of different experiences and that’s the time to do it because after law school, your career will take off.

What about experiences that are entirely unrelated to law: interest in music, the arts, sports, travel…? [18:32]

The possibilities are unlimited. I have been reading applications for quite a while and I have to say, you see a lot of different experiences come to law school and are successful. By no means does it have to be a traditional experience. I’ve seen people who have been chefs in a restaurant. I have seen people who have been musicians. You see a lot of different people coming to law school who do the work and go on and have a successful law career. I don’t think you should feel like you have to have that exact experience to come to law school because I’ve seen success in many different ways.

I’m going to guess that the person who has “a non-traditional career path” who can tie what they’ve learned from the career path to their future goals is probably going to be what you’re looking for. [19:34]

Exactly. That is a really helpful way for us to hear why studying law is their next step. And so in a crafted personal statement that can come across clearly and they’ll be able to tell us why this is their next step.

Some of these experiences may not be a vocation, they might be an avocation. In my work sometimes it’s the non-professional things that people have done that have made them much more interesting and have contributed enormously to personal growth. I can remember very early on in my work as an admissions consultant reviewing an essay for a client who was writing about the interpretive qualities of a particular genre of music. It was an outstanding essay. It had nothing to do directly with law, but it was outstanding. [20:09]

And those are fun applications to be able to evaluate because remember, the admissions committee’s job is trying to bring interesting people to the law school that’s going to enhance the classroom discussion and bring out interesting people. It’s those types of things that help craft the class, shall we say, and that will make the discussions in the classroom and outside the classroom engaging. It’s fun. I love my job.

Any more advice on the addenda? You mentioned the “why Chicago” addenda, but what about addenda having to do with the bad semester or character and fitness issues? [21:26]

I think you definitely have to add the addendum for any character and fitness issues you feel you need to disclose based on the law school application questions. And just a reminder to people listening, every school has different questions, so it’s not going to be a standard way to answer. So just be careful when you’re answering those questions. And if you do need to provide additional information, just be straightforward and honest.

And we see a lot of stuff that has to get disclosed and people get into law school with it. So you just have to be truthful, obviously, with those addendums. But other addenda that are helpful, my thoughts on this is if there are questions in your application that you feel admissions committees might have, like a low semester of grades, and you feel like you want to be the one in control of the story and you let the committee know what happened during that time, you want to be the one telling your story from beginning to end and don’t leave anything unanswered where the admissions committee or the person reading the file might have some other ideas what could have happened.

I’m not saying if you got one B in one semester to write an addendum, but I think if there was a particular semester that there was something else going on, I think it’s helpful for the committee to know.

For sure. I think there’s a difference between a drop in grades and a fluctuation. [23:07]

Exactly.

I saw that interviews are frequently part of the admissions process at UChicago Law. Are most or all admitted students interviewed? What can someone lucky enough to be invited to interview expect? [23:15]

Yes, we do over 1,200 interviews each cycle. Our interviews are done after an initial review of your application. They’re done to get to know the applicant a little bit more. There might be a question in the application that we want a little bit more detail on, but it’s also a time for the applicant to get to know us even better, to ask us questions that maybe they didn’t ask before they applied. It’s a conversation. There are no trick questions in the interview, they last about 20 minutes. They’re all over Zoom, done by a member of the admissions team. We do not use alums for our interviews or any some electronic ways to do our interviews. I just did four interviews this morning. So we’re actively doing those now. And I don’t want students to get too nervous about them. It’s a conversation, questions, getting to know them. There are no trick questions.

Are they behavioral in the sense that you might say, “When did you handle a situation like XYZ? When did you handle a situation-“? [24:25]

We’re trying to get to know them. Are they ready for this academic endeavor? What has gotten them to this point that they’re applying and wanting to go to law school? Why UChicago? Why do they want to come to the University of Chicago Law School? So they’re pretty standard questions.

Are you concerned about applicants using Chat GPT or AI and drafting their essays and applications? [24:51]

We did put some language in our certification that every applicant needs to sign indicating that they did not use it. So that is part of our certification. So I think that’s how we are addressing it this cycle. I think it’s such a new tool for us to get to know that we’ll see if our process changes at all.

Does Chicago Law consider update letters from applicants who have something significant to tell you after they submit their application and before hearing back from you or from waitlisted applicants? [25:20]

We will take any updates before an application has gone into its review process, meaning the start of the review process, the first review, but then after that, we won’t take any updates until a person’s been put on the waitlist.

In the portal, does it say when the application has gone to review? [25:47]

Yeah, our statuses are updated.

What are some common mistakes you see applicants make in the application process? [25:57]

I think first and foremost, the rewriting of the resume. I still see it in the personal statement, and I just think that’s a missed opportunity. Not that it’s terrible, but it’s just a missed opportunity for you to introduce yourself more to the admissions committee. Other mistakes include not following directions, and not that they’re complicated, but we see that sometimes not happening. Not being careful about which personal statement they’re updating, and I might get the personal statement from another school. Now that happens, and it doesn’t stop you from getting in. But one of the things that is important for lawyers is attention to detail. So we want applicants to remember that, and it starts during the application process.

You mentioned what I call resumes in prose in the personal statement, which is definitely a missed opportunity. Do you ever get a personal statement and think that the applicant just maybe updated their college personal statement? [26:51]

I have seen those a few times. They just totally missed the four years that they were in college. I hear about the high school marching band and they weren’t in the marching band in college. So, I don’t get this. And I mean, I do think there’s a subset of applicants out there that just don’t think we read the application. But here at Chicago, the review process is very thorough, very holistic. We read every application. So I think they have to be mindful of that.

How many reviews does an application get? [27:39]

At least two. And that doesn’t count the interview.

What would you have liked me to ask you? [27:57]

I think just coming to the University of Chicago, it’s quite the opportunity because of being on the main campus with the rest of the university to really foster that interdisciplinary approach. I think the city of Chicago is a great place to live for three years if you want to try a new city. Coming to Chicago, you get the best of both worlds. You have a campus feel here in Hyde Park, which is then about 15-20 minutes from Downtown Chicago where you can really take advantage of everything a major city has to offer.

Actually, I have one more question. The University of Chicago is known for questioning almost everything, is that also part of the law school? [28:31]

It definitely is. The University of Chicago has a strong commitment to free expression and wants to support those conversations, sometimes difficult conversations on topics where there’s disagreement. And we do a lot here at the law school to foster that. We have something called the Nussbaum Roundtables, which bring together faculty members who each take a different stance on a difficult topic and then bring a group of students together and discuss it, teaching them how to have civil discourse, listening, and understanding and learning from each other. And you’re not going to agree probably at the end, but you’re going to understand the different viewpoints. We believe that just postures a stronger lawyer because when you’re practicing law, sometimes you’re taking an opposite side for your client or in what you’re doing, but the best way to win that argument is to know what the other side’s going to do or understand where they’re coming from. So free expression is very much part of our DNA.

When I was growing up, my father and his best friend were diametrically opposed politically. I remember his friend coming over and my mom and the friend’s wife would sit and talk and have a nice time, and the two men would be arguing and having an absolute blast. They would tease each other, they would argue, and they were the best of friends. It was a wonderful way to grow up, a wonderful example. [30:11]

And I really think that’s what we’re fostering here. People learning from each other, learning about their differences, moving together, and being able to still be friends.

Relevant Links:

• The University of Chicago Law School
• Are You Ready for Law School? (Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz)
• U Chicago Law Personal Statement Tips
• Writing About Overcoming Obstacles in Your Application Essays | Accepted

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• Navigating the Law School Admissions Process, podcast – podcast Episode 550
• Is the University of Texas School of Law For You? – podcast Episode 546
• Is Boston University Law For You? – podcast Episode 539
• How a Non-Traditional Applicant Gets Into UCLA Law – podcast Episode 507
• How to Get Accepted to Berkeley Law – podcast Episode 504

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